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Toguro runs the Dragonball Z gauntlet.
Topic Started: May 21 2015, 03:57 PM (3,957 Views)
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Crazy Awesome Legend

Toguru from Yu Yu Hakusho runs the DBZ gauntlet. How far can he go?

Saiyan Saga

Radditz
Nappa
Vegeta

Freeza Saga

Cui
Vegeta
Dodoria
Zarbon
Monster Zarbon
Recoome
Jeice
Burter
Ginyu
Freeza first form
Freeza second form
Freeza third form
Freeza fourth form
Freeza 50%
Freeza 100%

Cell Saga

Android 19
Android 20
Cyborg 18
Cyborg 17
Inperfect Cell
Android 16
Semi Perfect Cell
Cell Junior
Initial perfect Cell
Cell games Perfect Cell warm up
50% Perfect Cell
100% Perfect Cell
Super Perfect cell


I can't see him getting past First form Freeza but I can imagine him beating Ginyu.


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Fiat Lux
May 30 2015, 06:40 PM
Well two things. Just because Togorou or whatever is too fast to be seen by the characters in the series doesn't mean the DB characters can't see them. It's all relative to the series itself. Whatever too fast to the eye means is all relative to who we're talking about. In DB it usually means close PLs can see each other in battle. Without any actual speedfeat from YYH everything is just a moot point.

Also just because Togorou can lift more than Goku doesn't mean he can strike harder than him. Each author has a different way of showcasing strength levels. In some series it's entirely possible that a character can lift only 10 pounds be their punches can destroy the planet.

@Solid Snake: I'm not sure what you mean? Kaioken multiplies your ki which in turn multiplies your speed, physical strength, etc.
That's my point though, if Goku vs Vegeta first fight is anything to go off of, then Goku physical attacks were just as strong as the Kamehameha during the duration of their battle. Goku managed to stagger him with his attacks (though he managed to recover) as in Kaioken times 3 and on 4 his Kamehameha did the the same (and he recovered from that too).


Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken! [ ] You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, then your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”

This here shows that there's a difference for power (strength) and destructive force (ki projectiles assumingly) yet defensively seems to stand by itself.
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They were just as strong in terms of hurting the opponent, yet also show to have completely different levels of force and destructive damage. Which leads to the belief that they're more susceptible to physical punches than ki attacks.

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Fiat Lux
May 30 2015, 07:05 PM
They were just as strong in terms of hurting the opponent, yet also show to have completely different levels of force and destructive damage. Which leads to the belief that they're more susceptible to physical punches than ki attacks.
How can both be just as strong but have different showing of force though?
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It's called susceptibility... or weakness to a type of attack. Kind of how like in some games mages are always taking hard hitting magic attacks without being phased yet when they get cut with a sword the suddenly die. It's more or less just a plot device like ki control. Technically even if ki was concentrated the energy just can't disappear. It needs to go through the Earth and beyond. It doesn't make sense in terms of physics but we just accept that ki control as a plot convenience.

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But how can they have absurb amounts of ki and none of that increasing their physical strength? That's what don't make sense to me. You can't have ki higher then your opponent to the point them hitting you with both physical and projectiles have a TOO difference of impacts.

And the quote earlier is hinting that their overall defensive force is all in a singular column (being able to take blunt damage from any attack that has to deal with: power, speed, and destructive force). If that was the case then Goku would have included or specified saying it increases ki attacks solely apart from power.
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Fiat Lux
May 30 2015, 06:40 PM
Also just because Togorou can lift more than Goku doesn't mean he can strike harder than him. Each author has a different way of showcasing strength levels. In some series it's entirely possible that a character can lift only 10 pounds be their punches can destroy the planet.
Well it does considering his whole thing is muscle manipulation it's not like he only increases his lifting strength.

To have enough strength to do a small scale version of what Gai does is definitely greater than what Goku does.


Even if we want to say pushing Chi-Chi out the ring involved no Ki at all(even though it could be an invisible Ki blast as Roshi couldn't sense) that still pales in comparison to being able to fire something more powerful than a bullet with a flick of a finger.

A gust of wind is nothing compared to:
Spoiler: click to toggle


Especially considering those are demons, way stronger than a human.

Actually he also does make a blast by flicking his hand, he hits the wall if the stadium where Yusuke's friends are which is like 30+ meters away while he's just playing around. Not sure that was in the anime.
So with a full power punch clearly he could send out some powerful shockwaves.

Also with one punch he shatters the whole arena he and Yusuke are fighting on.
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Solid Snake
May 30 2015, 08:29 PM
But how can they have absurb amounts of ki and none of that increasing their physical strength? That's what don't make sense to me. You can't have ki higher then your opponent to the point them hitting you with both physical and projectiles have a TOO difference of impacts.

And the quote earlier is hinting that their overall defensive force is all in a singular column (being able to take blunt damage from any attack that has to deal with: power, speed, and destructive force). If that was the case then Goku would have included or specified saying it increases ki attacks solely apart from power.

The Ki does increase their physical strength. I already said that. It multiplies it. It doesn't do much else. If you have more ki than your opponent then you will hit harder physical attacks.

I still don't get what you're trying to get at with the quote. Are you saying Goku should have said something along the lines of "it increases my ki defense and my physical defense as well"? And if he didn't that means the barrier doesn't exist? That's a fallacy.

Steve
May 30 2015, 10:13 PM
Fiat Lux
May 30 2015, 06:40 PM
Also just because Togorou can lift more than Goku doesn't mean he can strike harder than him. Each author has a different way of showcasing strength levels. In some series it's entirely possible that a character can lift only 10 pounds be their punches can destroy the planet.
Well it does considering his whole thing is muscle manipulation it's not like he only increases his lifting strength.

To have enough strength to do a small scale version of what Gai does is definitely greater than what Goku does.


Even if we want to say pushing Chi-Chi out the ring involved no Ki at all(even though it could be an invisible Ki blast as Roshi couldn't sense) that still pales in comparison to being able to fire something more powerful than a bullet with a flick of a finger.

A gust of wind is nothing compared to:
Spoiler: click to toggle


Especially considering those are demons, way stronger than a human.

Actually he also does make a blast by flicking his hand, he hits the wall if the stadium where Yusuke's friends are which is like 30+ meters away while he's just playing around. Not sure that was in the anime.
So with a full power punch clearly he could send out some powerful shockwaves.

Also with one punch he shatters the whole arena he and Yusuke are fighting on.


It does but you don't know by how much so it's a pointless measure. It's whatever is in the author's mind at the time. Like I said if the author wants he can lift only 10 pounds but destroy the planet with a punch.

I agree that they win in terms of strength of blowing winds with their strength. But that's the only category the decisively win in. AT didn't write in gust blowing, yet Goku @ Freeza has kicking strength several leagues above other characters who can use the wind with their strength. The point people were making about how different authors show strength in different ways is actually relevant here.

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The Ki does increase their physical strength. I already said that. It multiplies it. It doesn't do much else. If you have more ki than your opponent then you will hit harder physical attacks.

I still don't get what you're trying to get at with the quote. Are you saying Goku should have said something along the lines of "it increases my ki defense and my physical defense as well"? And if he didn't that means the barrier doesn't exist? That's a fallacy.


So how hard do they hit from your observation? Excluding benchmark physical strength.

Their destructive force lies mainly in there ki attacks. And since Goku differentiated power from destructive force, I can't possibly see them being more vulnerable to physical attacks then ki attacks. The way he worded defense as defensive force has to mean he meant all around.
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Well without statements and visual evidence there's no other solid way to gauge their strength. So I agree with what we've been giving in terms of benchmarks and what not.

I don't agree with you that just because he didn't say physical strength he didn't mean both under the same umbrella. He did mean combat speed and travel speed in the same umbrella, after all.

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Fiat Lux
Jun 1 2015, 03:00 AM
Well without statements and visual evidence there's no other solid way to gauge their strength. So I agree with what we've been giving in terms of benchmarks and what not.

I don't agree with you that just because he didn't say physical strength he didn't mean both under the same umbrella. He did mean combat speed and travel speed in the same umbrella, after all.
So you think anyone on SSJ3 Gotenks tier or higher can replicate what he did? I think you said if wasn't consistent then it can't be taken as face value then (cause no later feat like that occurred excluding BoG and RoF).

That's what I'm saying though, when he says "power" what's the first thing that pops in your mind? And for "destructive force"?

Being a simplistic story, it's easy to just automatically assume they mean anything regarding their overall strength. Destructive force is easily understood for ki attacks. Trying to determine what they're strength lies due to something the author didn't expand on.
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Yeah, I think anyone with SSJ3 Gotenks level or higher can replicate what he did. If I said it wasn't consistent and can't be taken at face value than I'll admit I was wrong back then if that's the entire context.

I honestly don't understand your argument with the quote, maybe someone else can break it down for me?

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